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> The only real answer is to work to have groups that you can trust to have access to this first.

How will this help exactly?


Don you know?

The world peace and harmony will be achieved when all the good guys will gather together and kill all the bad guys.


1) they'll know it exists in the first place

2) they can figure out a plan for when it happens

3) they can see if any countermeasures would be effective

4) they can figure out what to look for and find those weapons before they're fired

cfr. nuclear deterrence, right. There is "nothing" the US can do about other nations enriching uranium and making bombs, other than bombing those countries. The US can't change the laws of physics, follow the right formula and it'll work. However the US can figure out exactly what to look for to either prevent it from happening through intervention or at the very least get some warning before it's used ...


Discussion from yesterday, 375 comments

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47847240


From the government's perspective, this may (or may not) be silly.

But putting that aside, if a citizen supports banning cigarettes for people born after a certain date, but not alcohol, that certainly seems hypocritical to me.


I think there is a reasonable argument to be made that they're a different degree of societal problem. I think there's quite a few people who drink on special occasions, but not every week or even every month (I'm one of them).

I think it's very rare though for a smoker to not smoke several a day. A friend of mine was that rare breed and would buy a 10 pack occasionally - usually on a Friday and it'd be gone by Monday - but that would maybe be once a month. I think every other smoker I've met though goes through that amount every day.

So it seems to me the average smoker is much more likely to become a burden on a nationalised health service than the average drinker. There's more to this of course, smoking to excess generally doesn't increase the chances of you getting into a fight like drinking does for some people, but social pressure counters that partially too.


Smoking may be a burden on the healthcare system, but the effects of alcohol are a burden to everyone due to the resulting erratic and often directly destructive behavior.

Being a burden on the healthcare system in a country that has nationalised healthcare is being a burden on everyone through increased taxes and reduced spending in areas the money could be more useful.

Those erratic behaviours you talk about are generally illegal in most countries as well with drink driving, public intoxication, assault laws etc.

Drinking does have some positives as well, pubs are one of the few third spaces we have remaining. I know there are alternatives, but there are people who won't socialise in a cafe or a book club, but will go to the pub to see the regulars. Considering lots of Western countries have loneliness epidemics I think there'd be a downside to removing that option.

Drinking does seem to lubricate social situations, weed can help with pain etc. The only upside from smoking for the individual as far as I can tell is that it fixes the problem it created from you being addicted to it i.e. you get calmer when you get your fix.


A minority of people who drink are addicted to alcohol.

Basically everyone who smokes/etc is addicted to nicotine.

They aren't the same at all.


Don't forget gambling. Though given that the gambling lobby were the only donor's to Starmer's leadership campaign that out-donated the pro-Israel lobbyists, I wouldn't bet on them doing something about it. Pun intended.

Edit: just realised I posted under the wrong comment. Doh.


>But putting that aside, if a citizen supports banning cigarettes for people born after a certain date, but not alcohol, that certainly seems hypocritical to me.

Why does everyone on HN seem to have a hate boner for alcohol? The main problem there is car culture, not the alcohol.

In any case, the hypocritical part is where the UK, like many US states, has legalized marijuana for medical use and is well on its way to legalizing it for recreational use. Pipe tobacco at least smelled good. Cigarettes, not so much. But marijuana smells like a mix of stale cigarettes and body odor. AND the second hand smoke isn't just harmful, it can make you high along with the dirty smelling marijuana smoker. At least with nicotine, it sharpens your concentration. THC on the other hand makes you a lazy Cheeto eating couch potato with no future.


> Why does everyone on HN seem to have a hate boner for alcohol? The main problem there is car culture, not the alcohol.

I don't really see how car culture has anything to do with stuff like domestic violence, child abuse, or various other side-effects of alcohol culture.


As with the cars, those are not alcohol issues, they are violence issues. Whether a drunk person turns to saccharine displays of affection or destructive acts of violence is likely driven by cultural norms and the underlying conditions of their lives.[0] Blaming alcohol for violence is akin to blaming the internet for increases in fraud.

[0] https://doi.org/10.4135/9781483331096.n184


Globally, 38% of violent deaths are alcohol-related 81% of male perpetrators of intimate partner violence in England and Wales test positive for alcohol at arrest

https://worldmetrics.org/alcohol-violence-statistics/


Sure, maybe, arguably. Does it matter though? A world without smoking is still better than a world with smoking, right?

And a world where the government tells you what to eat, what to drink, and how much to exercise under penalty of jail is the best of all worlds!

Perhaps. The viability of that aside, I would rather attempt to create that world with things like education rather than the government mandating it. That tends not to work out as intended.

A world without hypocrisy would be better still.

We know the dangers of second hand smoke. Someone drinking near you does not impact your health.

With all due respect, this is completely wrong.

There is a difference that someone smoking nearby automatically harms people around you. With alcohol, the effect is more unpredictable, but it is equally real.

Alcohol is a factor in an automobile crashes, and a factor in a significant proportion of violent crime, especially domestic violence (https://www.cato-unbound.org/2008/09/17/mark-kleiman/taxatio... edit: this source isn't as great, Kleiman has written elsewhere about the subject, but google is failing me). If we could wave a magic wand and cause drinking to cease to exist, many lives would be saved.

Note: I do in fact drink, I am not a teetotaler. But what I said above is factual. I personally believe that prohibition would be worse, and it's reasonable for individuals to make their own choices. But that does not entail denying that it goes very badly for many.


Second-hand smoke does affect people around you. It is how people get addicted to nicotine. It is how new smokers are created.

And there are some people who are more sensitive to temporary exposure to smoke (and pollution in general) than others. That is why smoking tends to be is banned around hospitals and day care centers ­— because those are places where you will find those people. My father was one of them, after he had got his larynx removed for throat cancer after having smoked for decades. He could not suffer being subjected to even small amounts of second-hand smoke again because then the breathing hole in his throat would get irritated, fill up with mucus and have to be cleaned with a suction device.

And if you drink alcohol next to me, it does not make my clothes and my hair stink so much afterwards that I will want to wash my hair and change my clothes before going to bed.


No, but the person drinking next to you can suddenly decide you gave them a bad look and decide to pick a fight.

Why are you replying as if I denied second hand smoke harms people? I very clearly said it did.

If you just ignore alcohol fueled violence, birth defects, deaths from drivers hitting people and cars and the emotional health toll to others from dealing with an alcoholic, sure.

iirc alcohol is the drug with the highest amount of 3rd party harm due to the high number of people beating their spouse, children and sometimes random strangers under the influence. (+ 3rd party property, car crashes, ...) Keep in mind this was evaluated with current laws, which bans most kinds of indoor-smoking.

Still a good idea to ban cigarettes and force people to consume their nicotine in healthier ways.


I know at least one hacker news reader who didn't grow up with an alcoholic parent.

Congratulations!


That is, until that person gets behind the wheel or on a (motor)bike and impacts you - and with that, your health - directly.

Having said that I don't like the nanny society which acts like it knows better. People sometimes want to do stupid things and I think they should be able to do so. They should also not burden society with the consequences of their stupid actions so smokers either pay in more for health insurance or get relegated to the bottom tier - e.g. "palliative care for smoking-induced illnesses, no life-extending treatments for smoking-related diseases". No smoking where it impacts others negatively - this includes minors living in their house - but if they want to smoke where it doesn't impact others just let them do it.


> That is, until that person gets behind the wheel or on a (motor)bike and impacts you - and with that, your health - directly.

Which is something weirdly North American - it's insane how okay USians are with drinking and driving considering how Puritanical they are about drinking generally.


Are they? I have not experienced this myself. The Americans I met seemed to have the same position towards DUI as the north-western and northern Europeans I know: it is a bad idea which leads to needless accidents, injuries and death. Being a north-western European living in northern Europe I know far more of the latter two than I know Americans but, having visited the country many times for business and a few times for pleasure (north, south, east and west) I haven't met anyone who considered it 'OK' to drink and drive even though I did meet a few who did so anyway. The same is true for the Europeans I mentioned, some do get behind the wheel while they know they shouldn't.

You've probably never been out on a Friday night in the Uk.

This comment doesn't deserve the downvotes, it's a very valid point.

Is it really that bad? Is there something I can read to learn more?

> Is it really that bad?

I say this as someone who quite enjoys his drink–you haven't seen a hardcore drinking culture until you've dodged multiple projectile vomiters in SoHo at like 5PM on a random Tuesday.


I somehow managed to avoid experiencing this despite living in the UK up to the age of 34.

I'm a bit late responding on my own sub-thread, but if you haven't seen these photos before, this is roughly what every city centre in the UK looks like after dark. https://www.maciejdakowicz.com/cardiff-after-dark/

Not Havant, though I was there to 18 and would've only had the independence to examine the nightlife for the two years in which I was doing my A-levels; not Aberystwyth as a university student, nor Plymouth city in my industrial year even though I lived here: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Capitol+Students+Central+P...

Likewise, Cambridge was far too genteel for that, when I lived there.

Sheffield managed one night that would've fitted in with those pictures. When my partner and I walked past the football stadium as everyone was leaving.


Very surprised you never saw this in Plymouth!

Grow up with an alcoholic parent then get back to us

It doesn't? That should be good news for victims of drunk driving, and the families of abusive drunks.

There’s still a difference, surely? Drinking alcohol can lead to drunk driving and it can lead to abuse. Thankfully in the vast majority of instances it doesn’t.

Second hand smoke, however, inflicts damage the moment it’s inhaled.


I'm not saying there's no difference. I just don't that difference is as pronounced as some people think, and I don't think it excuses the apparent double standard.

Brief Googling also suggests that second-hand smoke affects at least similar levels of people as drunk driving, if not more - to say nothing of e.g. domestic violence.

Not to mention, there are already various laws designed to mitigate the effects of second-hand smoke, such as not smoking indoors or in cars with children.

Overall, I am just not convinced that it's necessary to focus so much more on cigarettes over other drugs.


> there are already various laws designed to mitigate the effects of second-hand smoke

And there are already various laws designed to prevent drunk driving and drunk domestic abuse.

I think the broader picture here is a simple one: drinking alcohol is more societally acceptable than smoking. A government is going to be reflective of its voters, “necessary” or not, a law to ban drinking would be enormously unpopular in a way a law to ban smoking would not.


> I think the broader picture here is a simple one: drinking alcohol is more societally acceptable than smoking. A government is going to be reflective of its voters, “necessary” or not, a law to ban drinking would be enormously unpopular in a way a law to ban smoking would not.

Sure, and this is why I put aside the issue of whether the government is doing the "right" thing in its position and focused on the people who it supposedly reflects - because it doesn't make sense to me that one is more acceptable than the other to an individual, and thinking so doesn't seem to reflect any sort of realistic view on alcohol and its impact on society, while holding cigarettes to a much higher standard.


Same amount of damage done to your liver from that beer…

There's no such thing as second hand liver damage from someone else drinking beer

There is when that person is traveling at a high rate of speed...

Look, I get that you're anti-smoking along with the rest of us but both things are bad. Drinking is bad, smoking is bad, a lot of things are bad. The question is, which of these bad things did you try out and are now stuck with? That's the real issue. Products shouldn't not be allowed to be physically addicting like that. Arguing about it on HN to a bunch of addicts is like arguing with an alcoholic on their drinking problem. It's an echo chamber or a brick wall. Someone's going to walk away with a black eye.

Is second hand smoke dangerous? Not the same way inhaling soldering fumes could be or if you ever welded, the fumes could cause damage to your lungs. It's more subtle and requires prolonged exposure.


There is, however, absolutely such a thing as being glassed and sustaining head injuries from someone else drinking beer.

Shows up consistently in A&E Hospital records, reportedly enough to identify weekends and phases of the moon.


Oh, the hysteria people get over smelling a whiff of secondhand smoke. While you walk down a street full of diesel trucks, inhaling microplastics, microwaving your food in plastic, drinking water from plastic bottles, eating processed foods with nitrates, corn sugar soaked in round-up, standing out in the sun, getting body scans and dental X-rays.

You know the only people who got lung cancer from secondhand smoke were people who worked in airplanes and bars and casinos for 20 years and were in condensed, extremely smoky environments day in and day out, right? I smoke. I understand that everything is a cumulative risk factor. The absolute crazy freak-out hysterical reaction people have to cigarette smoke versus all the things I just named is purely a product of decades of expensively paid-for indoctrination. No one in their right mind would argue that smoking doesn't cause cancer, but if you literally think you are being harmed by smelling smoke, you must surely have a problem living in this world without a filter on your face at all times, because there is a lot more poisonous shit you encounter every single day, everywhere you go - and that's if you're lucky enough not to work in a plastics factory or somewhere that makes microwave popcorn.

[edit] While I'm at it, I just want to give a shout-out to all the people I know who heat up teflon pans before cooking in them. Who would never let someone smoke in their kitchen!


> purely a product of decades of expensively paid-for indoctrination

No, it's because being around a smoker is deeply unpleasant.

I'm old enough to remember going out before the indoor smoking ban took effect. The next morning I'd step into the shower and the smell of smoke would fill the bathroom as I washed it out of my hair. I would have a sore throat. It was all absolutely disgusting and we're so much better off where we are today. I'm sorry that your vice of choice is such a gross one.


Being around cars is deeply unpleasant. And the second-hand smoke they put off is very unhealthy to breathe in.

Being against things like TFA does not mean one is against things like banning indoor smoking. Just like being for alcohol doesn't mean one wants to legalize drunk driving.

> No, it's because being around a smoker is deeply unpleasant.

Being around drinkers isn't exactly a picnic :)


Being around anyone who's disrespecting your own preferences sucks. There are two useful things to do and one antisocial thing to do in that scenario.

Useful: Don't go there, or ask someone near you to be considerate.

Antisocial: Hide and wait for the government to ban people doing it, until some theoretical future day where you feel comfortable being in a public space around people who may make you uncomfortable.

I'm a very considerate smoker. I'd never smoke by someone who was bothered by it. It truly pisses me off when smokers are inconsiderate.

On the other hand, shaping other people's behavior to your liking strikes me as sociopathic. Using the government to do so strikes me as spineless. If I'm going into their happy space, to a yoga retreat or an orgy or a wedding, I have to accept that they will do lots of things I might not enjoy. The difference is that I don't have a sense of superiority because I lack their mental flaws and sociopathic addictions to whatever they believe, but they have that sense of superiority in judging mine. And only because they have safety in numbers, which makes it even more pathetic.

This is also how I feel being an all night coder. Everyone is fine with making noise during the day and waking me up, because that's "normal" and my schedule isn't. But if I feel like playing piano at 4am, that is a problem, even if the asshole next door takes out his lawnmower at 7am. This is a division between people who want to be nice to each other, and respectful, versus those who think there is a single correct way to live and that anyone deviating from it doesn't deserve equal respect.

"Live and let live" seems to have lost its currency among the hysteria of everyone who righteously disapproves of other people's behavior. Not everywhere in the world needs to be safe for someone's individual bundle of neuroses. What's unfortunate is that we can't rely on individuals respecting other individuals now, so via the government the most repressive scenario presented by the least imaginative party in each case largerly wins. Everyone who wants to ban someone else's behavior should have the opportunity to have one of their own banned as well, to understand this phenomenon. But the safety in numbers overrides this. Which is also to say that the mass of humans are conformist cowards.


> Someone drinking near you does not impact your health.

Hah, alcoholics have done more damage to my life than a smoker could ever dream of.


Incremental change isn't a thing? Focusing on one health area, which will certainly be a massive undertaking, instead of trying to wipe out all unhealthy things at the same time?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cool

"7 informal: b: very fashionable, impressive, or appealing in a way that is generally approved of especially by young people"


Is this worth reporting/sharing here? There are likely countless instances of this, no?

This argument would be a lot more convincing if you linked to issues or something.

I can second the sentiment, I have had kdenlive crash on me several times without saving.

I still use it because it's great for quick and simple things, and I save frequently, but it is extremely frustrating when it happens.


The parent does not want (or claims) to produce a report on Kdenlive's reliability or lack thereof.

He merely comments on it. Those interested either already know (and agree or disagree) or can find out with a test run.


So my son and I have used Kdenlive quite a bit and we've never had it crash. That's why I was asking for specifics: it would be interesting to know what circumstances lead to crashes, even if it's just a hunch.

It seems infinitely more likely to me that this is simple coincidence than something nefarious.

Don’t get me wrong, I agree; but the odds of that coincidence are extremely long.

I'm sad my second thought about this (after dismissing it as a coincidence) was that it could be used for marketing - "I randomly thought about this book/show/movie whatever, and hey what do you know? The sequel is coming out!". Basically another variation on 'organic' advertising in comments that's been around for a while.

Of course I highly doubt that's what actually happening here, but the idea is unpleasant. I hate advertising, I don't want it messing with real interactions with other humans. I'm not sure how to express the idea, it's like its so pervasive I'm thinking about it when its not even present.


This idea makes me deeply uncomfortable, and I shouldn't have included the name of the book in my original comment (now too late to edit).

If you check on average every three years, the odds of you checking the very same day the book comes out are about 1‰, which is improbable but not _extremely_. Add that together with all the probabilities of things that would make you think "wow, that's improbable" and we have pretty high odds of something improbable happening.

In addition, there are factors that make it more probable.

- The sequel came out a bit less than 2 years after the first book, which is fairly typical. It means it is a likely time to think "what about the sequel?"

- Doctor appointments and book releases both tend to happen on tuesdays. Especially book releases, so it is possible that you tend to think more about books on tuesdays

- It is possible to think about the book more than once without realizing it, maybe even inquery about the sequel without realizing it, and because the result is negative and unimportant, it is easy to forget. It is not uncommon for me to search something just to find it in my history, completely forgotten

I would put the likelihood of something like that happening by accident to about 1/100, the "noticeable but not memorable" kind, such as meeting the same person twice in a day in a different context, or arriving at a highly coveted parking spot just as the previous guy is leaving.


Okay, I squinted hard at that notation “1‰” and had Gemini explain it to me, and it appears that you made no typos, but I couldn’t let that go unexplained!

ButlerianJihad… had Gemini explain it to you…

Well, you know. Every med student goes through this "I Am An Earthly God" phase. Usually it passes. But the guy isn't obviously in favor of the concept for which his account is named, so there isn't the contradiction here that appears to exist on the face of it. (Speaking of usernames, hello, Grima! How on Middle-earth did you survive that fall?)

Literally the first person to understand the reference in ~14 years of using this handle, thank you.

You are most welcome! - especially at such long last.

Couldn't skip an opportunity to use an unusual character, could I‽

Is it possible this is due to a memorability bias, where perhaps you’ve done basically the same sort of thing many times before and just forgot about it because nothing noteworthy happened? Then it wouldn’t be as much of a coincidence.

Don't many public libraries have other things other than printed books, including music?

> they will have to lead from a position of deep unpopularity

Can you elaborate on... why?


The breakdown of the welfarism as there's simply not enough workers to feed the welfare state.

The economic stagnation.

The discontent with the current bureaucratic and unelected elite that makes up 2/3 of the Trilogue.


Tons of regulations over and over.

  General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR)
  EU Artificial Intelligence Act (AI Act)
  ePrivacy Directive (Cookie Law)
  Digital Services Act (DSA)
  Digital Markets Act (DMA)
  Common Agricultural Policy (CAP)
  Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism (CBAM)
  EU Emissions Trading System (ETS)
  Corporate Sustainability Due Diligence Directive (CSDDD)
  REACH Regulation (chemicals control)
  Packaging and Packaging Waste Regulation (PPWR)
  Nature Restoration Law
  Renewable Energy Directive (RED III)
  Working Time Directive
  Posted Workers Directive
  Roaming Regulation (price caps for telecoms)
  VAT Directive (harmonized VAT rules)
  State Aid Rules
  Schengen Border Code (migration/border controls)
  Eco-design and product standardization rules
  Corporate Sustainability Reporting Directive (CSRD)
  EU Taxonomy Regulation
  Sustainable Finance Disclosure Regulation
  Regulation to Prevent and Combat Child Sexual Abuse
It dictate sustainability, but instead create unsustainable behemot that costs tax payers more than it brings. It hampers competitiveness, remove freedoms from citizens and holding back the economy. One of the original ideas of building EU was to bring common market. Not any more.

Basically EU holds power through funding projects by grants, which fundamentally breaks free market and there is no transparency in it (ie. Pfizer contracts, proponents of Chat Control, etc.).


ehm lol? Roaming Regulation (price caps for telecoms) is very popular and was even advertised by the EU itself. DSA, DMA and REACH arent very famous but you explain more deeply most people would agree. Orban was voted out of office e.g. because chemical problems in a Samsung factory. So at least your hypothesis must be cited. Apple and Google arent very popular mega corps.

Apple and Google arent very popular mega corps

That's why DSA doesn't work. Small and medium-sized enterprises comply and delete unnecessary content because they face crippling fines, while big ones just pay fines made from harmful content. Over and over.


tell me more about these popular small and medium sized enterprises which are struggeling under the obligation of the DSA. I like to hear which ones at least.

Btw, the Very Large ones regulated under DSA are either neutral or negative seen.


Half of these are vital for wellbeing and financial reasons. Only a libertarian or MAG hatter argued that, say, Working Time directive, Schengen regulations or GDPR are detrimental to EU citizens.

LOL.


Profit-seeking? That seems like a stretch.

Also how do you know they have any "massive deals"? Do they publish details about the money they receive?


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