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Why do people consistently and falsely believe that they have privacy in public settings? You are literally out in public. If you don't want your behavior in public to be observed, then either don't behave in such a way that you wouldn't want observed, or stay home.

UPDATE: don't conflate stalking with observation. These are not the same. You can observe, but you cannot intimidate.

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Every entrance to my neighborhood has a Flock camera from my local police department. Tracking the exact time I enter and leave my home is at the very least right at this line you’re trying to draw.

How that information is accessed and/or used is where the distinction lies.

So you'd be cool with us crowdsourcing a film crew to follow you and your family around in public at all times?

Should I be concerned that you're stalking me, or that you know this information? The former is illegal, the latter is not.

What's the difference in outcome between passive stalking by having sufficient cameras to capture everyone's actions at all times and active stalking with a film crew?

Intimidation and threatening behavior. Context matters.

It is intimidating and threatening to most normal people for their wearabouts to be tracked at all times, regardless of the mode.

Take this opportunity to learn that different people might have different thresholds to feel intimidated and that normal people don't feel comfortable being tracked at all times in real life, regardless of the mechanism by which it's being executed.

In the above example, maybe you feel uncomfortable because the film crew is following you around in broad daylight? Would you feel better if they stayed hidden like the flock cameras in this example?


They're not being tracked at all times in real life. They're potentially being tracked in public.

I get that some people have a desire for privacy in public. And I'm even sympathetic to it. However, with the exception of the EU, privacy in public not is a right, nor is it a thing most people believe they possess. (And even ECHR Article 8 has a carveout for recording public activities for legitimate purposes.)

If you think you should have such privacy rights, by all means, use the political process to achieve it. But note that it's not cost-free, and there will be tradeoffs.


> They're potentially being tracked in public.

In the film crew example, what is the difference if the crew is sufficiently far away from you such that you won't know? The paparazzi already do it to celebrities, seems reasonable for individuals to just track each other at a distance if we're all okay with your proposed path.


> seems reasonable for individuals to just track each other at a distance if we're all okay with your proposed path.

They often do. What am I gonna do, run up to anyone who's taking cell phone videos that might have me in it and try to force them to stop recording? That would make me look unhinged.


So, full circle, you're okay with a film crew recording you and your family in public at all times?

It’s a false equivalence. Passive surveillance cameras aren’t the same as having a bunch of annoying people trailing me, which gives rise to the concern for the personal safety of me and my family. So I reject the comparison.

What about if/when those cameras are no longer really passive, and everything they see gets autonomously compiled into a dossier on your activities and movements?

That’s a separate issue. Real time observation is one thing. What happens with the data afterwards is another.

Now, the obvious response to that is “if you’re not watching, it can’t be recorded in the first place.” But we have legitimate reasons for wanting to observe public activities. The question is, how do we strike the right balance between legitimate use and abuse?


> Passive surveillance cameras aren’t the same as having a bunch of annoying people trailing me, which gives rise to the concern for the personal safety of me and my family. So I reject the comparison.

Rejecting reality doesn't mean it's not real. The direction passive surveillance is going and is at is already approaching active surveillance in terms of outcomes. The only difference is it's being applied more uniformly, rather than just to a specific individual. But the outcomes in terms of tracking all of our whereabouts are indistinguishable.

This is the entire premise of the post, which you are tiptoeing around and never directly answering the question of "is it fine for everyone to be tracked in public at all times"? A yes or no here would be helpful.


Would you mind if I parked near your house, such that every morning, when you drove past, I could follow you. To work, to the store, to the gym, you know, wherever.

Then on the way home I'll park where I left off. If anyone asks me I'll them everything I know about you. It's "public" information after all.


Should I be concerned that you're stalking me, or that you know this information? The former is illegal, the latter is not.

Flock can alert when any specific car drives by. No warrant is required to use this feature.

So, I won't follow you, but when you _do_ leave, I'm going to call some people to let them know that happened. Still cool?


Eat your heart out. It's also a completely legitimate law enforcement technique.

Having this surveillance done by human beings rate limits the process to, in theory, focus it on actual criminals. Requiring warrants for the more invasive and persistent techniques adds another layer of accountability.

You're bootstrapping your argument with an assumption that there's something to account for. Public activities are public. You're shifting the accountability from the actor to the observer.



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